I attended the meeting at the Ministry of Land Management, Urban Planning and Construction on Feb 20th for the government/private sector review and input session for the 3rd Draft of the Sub-decree on the Management and Us of Co-Owned Buildings.

They were very clear that this does not apply to foreigners, but said that there will be a future sub-decree which will address the ownership of "building" by foreigners. This current sub-decree lays the foundation for it by laying down the rules for co-owned buildings (condominiums, etc). Don't get your hopes up yet... there is no current discussion on the possibility of foreigners owning "land".

I know this doesn't answer all the other implication questions you had, but you should know that any new law will allow only foreign ownership of buildings, very similar to the law in Thailand.

CORRECTION: Sub-decree on the Management and Use of Co-Owned Buildings

I understand that Songha09 is correct. The laws under consideration are only going to allow for foreigners to own some kinds of immovable property (apartments and condominiums, I recall, maybe not even houses). Foreign ownership of land is not being considered. I'm pretty sure that requires a variation to the constitution to achieve? Art 44 of the Constitution excludes foreign ownership of land. Anyway...

Family Book only lists the members of the family unit and is not related to land ownership.

Residence Book only lists the current occupants of the property and is related to land ownership by the fact that the owner is responsible for maintaining the Residence Book for a property. Presumably a new Residence Book would need to be made if ownership changes - the Residence Book I have has the owner's name on the front cover.

As for your other considerations re problems with rented property, remodeling permits, utility bills in your name etc, I would expect that if foreigners are allowed to own land in the future they would be subject to exactly the same regulations as Khmers. If they are subject to any different requirements then that would have to be specified in the changes to the laws that enable foreigners to own land. But until any such law/amendment is drafted it's just speculation.

BC

Additional info links...

Details Are Sketchy (20 Feb 09)
http://detailsaresketchy.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/foreign-ownership-law-...

Global Property Guide (23 Oct 08)
http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Asia/Cambodia

People's Daily Online (21 Aug 08)
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/6482113.html

There was something in the Post not long ago, but I don't have that info on this PC. Anyone else care to provide the relevant info?

BC

Hmmm... two things which interest me in regard to this subject, not sure if anybody has any info tho -> but if you dont ask you never know!

- Only of minor interest as I am sure if this is happening it's cos of finance much larger than anybody here would ever be able to access, which is generally a good passport anywhere... but a contact I have in Thailand is saying the Russians are buying up huge swathes of Cambodia land, which seems to contradict the aforementioned Article 44 of the Cambo Consti. Does this sound right to anybody here? I'd imagine if such activities are happening, then it opens some potential scope for individual foreigners to do similar, assuming the Russians dont buy all thats going!

- Now, in terms of naturalisation, as I understand a female foreigner just needs to marry a Khmer to acquire a Cambo passport, and a male foreigner needs to learn fluent spoken and written Khmer, have a sustainable source of income, and have resided in Cambo for 5 years, or 2 years plus get married to acquire a Cambo passport. Lets assume that "Foreigner X" satisfies one of these scenarios and now holds a Cambo passport... can "Foreigner X" now buy property and land as if they where a native Khmer?

Reports of Russians "buying up swathes of land" are not exactly correct. Even with the construction of infrastructure worth literally hundreds of millions, the Ruskies only get a 99 year lease on their coastal islands, not ownership of the land. While the law might be changed to allow foreign ownership of non-ground floor apartments etc like TL, my feeling is that Cambodia will NEVER allow foreigners to own land. Big investors (esp the Chinese) sometimes get around the problem by becoming a Cambodian citizen.
You'd should be OK with less than half ownership of a property in the capital, providing that you have a registered hard title and trustworthy partners, but elsewhere it's probably not such a good plan. There are rumors that much of the prime land around Kampot/Kep/SHV bought up in small lots, often by foreigners, will be 'reclassified' as national park land and/or confiscated 'for national development' in the coming years. The legislation to allow this is wither already passed or being drafted. Beware...

Says who ? Your landlord's brother's cleaner's dog walker ?

THE KID

99 years leases make more sense, twas something I was curious about as it seemed strange that Cambodia would be selling loads of itself to the Russian.

With the whole ownership thing on my part, I'm not sure if I am going to settle in Cambo; I need to take my first year as an expat there since on paper it looks the best place to recoup my initial costs, but I am going to keep an open mind about where I finally end up... compared to my Thailand days it sounds like Phnom Penh has a lot more crime and is less farang/barang friendly(!)

What do you mean by a 'hard title' Sam? Ah yeah, and 'trustworthy', now thats another interesting point!

-> Are there trustworthy Khmers when it comes to partnering with a westerner, or are they all out to rip you off?

In Thailand I found that there where some Thais who where genuine, but watched various westerners trying to settle and loose everything! About 80% to 90% of potential partners would be peeps who would rip you off.

Kid, does it matter if the rumor came from the spiced roast egg street vender's second cousin's moto mechanic's favourite fruit seller's parrot? I've heard a similar rumor from a while ago about westerners loosing land they had bought in India for similar reasons.

I dont know if any of it is actually correct, but by looking at how the Cambos are treating their own peeps when it comes to the refugees who moved back to the city but are now getting their homes demolished by bulldover, and the villages who dont believe in land ownership (per se) being sold out to the big developers in shady ways, it looks like you are only truly safe with your land title if you are in the Cambo government and big business elite!

Still, your brash and blunt comments make me chuckle, we're gonna have to hook up for beer when I finally land, I reckon you could be a bit of a laugh. Thats backed up by rumor by the way, the house cleaner's youngest daughter's English teacher's old apartment mate apparently said such after getting pissed with you in that bar by the river

This parrot was served up with some kampot pepper and so now the rumor cannot be confirmed...
----tasted great

Let me guess - you bought land in one or more of these places at the height of the land boom and now don't want to admit your investment has gone tits up. Perhaps you don't even have a hard title or vehicular access :oops: . Why not have a flick through recently passed and drafted legislation focusing on all the myriad ways you can legally lose such a tenuous property? It might be a very sobering read, and that's before you consider how you can be booted out illegally. Still, shooting the messenger is always the best plan in these circumstances

No, you're incorrect. No sex discrimination when it comes to naturalisation requirements here. It's the same for males and females.
See this forum thread (found by searching for "citizenship") which has all the information you should need:
http://www.expat-advisory.com/forums/topic6403.html?hilit=citizenship
But yes, if a foreigner becomes a citizen, that person can buy property and lands with the same rights as a native Khmer.

Have to point out that that's a really dumb question, sorry. Are there trustworthy English/Canadian/American/Australian/Timbuktuan people to partner with? Same answer.
Of course there's plenty, but you need to (a) find them; and (b) be worth their investment of time, money, and risk. Don't expect to turn up, and be able to go directly to a shopfront, sign contracts and own a piece of property. If it was that easy, then the law against foreigners owning land would be irrelevant.
Most people either have the property in their Khmer spouse's name, or in the name of the Khmer spouse of a trusted friend, or in the name of a trusted Khmer friend. For most people that means they should have known the person in question for quite some time before they can be trusted with a few hundred thousand dollars... even then, there are instances of folks running off with the cash. Some people, sadly, just can't be trusted.

BC

In terms of "dumb question", yes it should be such. However, reading the threads about land ownership on the (less active but first visited) Alloexpat.com forum, the general advice was:

a) Dont buy any land
b) All Khmer legal bods, one of whom you would need for such transactions, will double deal you

I've not witnessed Cambo yet, and the above was from peeps who have first hand experience.

Whilst in Thailand, the myriad of half constructed houses where a farang has entered into a land venture with a Thai (usually male farang trying to obtain a little bit of Thailand in terms of property plus Thai girl) is phenomenal... well, esp around the Nong Khai area, it used to be a talking point each time we'd go on an expedition to a fishing lake. Also witnessed a number of westerners loose all their money to such bad judgment. One bloke sold everything in the UK and came over with 3,000,000Baht, bagged Thai girlfriend, and set about building a nice house near her village.

- Thai girl had Thai hubby in the background who she loved, and she didn't actually like western men
- The house builders became unreliable at working so the house project well overstepped the target build time
- Thai girl kept choosing extra expensive items to be included in the house build, like the most expensive taps, etc

Ultimately, farang ran out of cash, and had to return to the UK (where he would need to rent to have somewhere to live) to earn more cash so he could complete his dream project. This has probably became another skeleton house standing in the Thai countryside by now.

However... in regard to trustworthy Khmer

Good, thats what I figured but I just needed to hear it, cos so far I aint heard that!

Only until you inevitably fall out of favor with whichever despot is currently in charge

Not true, I know some fine Khmer legal bods. They're not going to help you buy land unless you engage them to do so via accepted methods, but they're not going to double deal you either. As I've said above the majority of people operate via friends/family, but there are some other options to pursue (corporate holdings etc) and you could look into them if you're keen. Let me know and I can put you in touch with a legal bod, or two.

Re the Thai stuff and the poor farang's problems, I'm sure that there's plenty of Thai nationals who have also been done over in the real estate market there. As well as plenty of people who haven't had those problems and whose purchases went as planned. Much the same in any country, there's heaps of people who are ready and willing to take advantage of "opportunities" that come their way to take your $ and make it theirs. So you've got to do your research. There's risk involved in any real estate transaction no matter where you are...

For what it's worth, there's plenty of expats here in Cambodia who own land and haven't had major problems with it. And, because of the restrictions on foreign ownership, you don't see situations like you're describing in Nong Khai.

(When it comes to business licensing and collaborations with Khmer partners, however, there are plenty of bad experiences that I've heard about - you need to know your partner well before going in to business - but that's another story entirely...)

BC

Hmmm, interesting, I may be taking you up on your legal bod offer there if Cambo floats my boat...

Got quals and some experience in music recording and production, ultimately thats what I like doing but opening up a studio in Blighty is suicide as it's going to close within a year and you'll loose s**t loads in the process. Once I've taken a look at the Cambo music scene I may be tempted to sort out a warehouse as a media school/recording studio/band rehearsal space during the day, and a proper phat night club by night where the musos can perform the stuff they create in daylight hours. Bit pie in the sky maybe, but if there is scope then I'd definitely want some good legal bods to help with the paperwork etc

Hmmm.. off topic for "Home ownership"... sorry!

Lots of the usual nonsense here,I have some experience in these matters.
At present in cambodia there is no such thing as a secure land tile.
Anyone rich and powerful can steal any land.
This may never change,if you were rich and powerful why would you shoot yourself in the foot.
My latest block of land in the fiancees name is covered by a mortgage document,I am the bank(mortgagor) so she cannot sell especially as i hold the tile deed.
However the title deed really means nothing if someone rich and powerful comes along and likes the look of a house with a pool on the river.
I will take my chances.
The best advice is not to buy land that is desirable then it may not get stolen.
The thais have a real land title system set up with help from the west australian state government,will never happen here.

Does any company/bank offer "illegal seizure of land" insurance, I wonder?

That will take 5 minutes. What else will you do while you are here ?

THE KID

Hmmm... interesting raise, this is surely going to need a new thread...

Lots of potential in the cambo music scene jodha-good on you.
As for legal bods i have a really good one,as trustworthy as any western lawyer,he charges out at $80 an hour.
He has my land titles in safe keeping and I will give him my power of attorney.