Hi Donloz, i have split this one off as it is more a question than a report and will be better off as a new topic.

Thanks, no problem for me - in fact it was a (sort of) report embedded in a question :roll:

I have every good khmer lawyer but I dont think that a lawyer would want to be involved in this.
I would recommend that you friend simply front the family who will always deny everything and then move out and move on.

Hiring a lawyer in Cambodia?

Sorry, this isn't viable... I finished my law degree 5 years ago, and I've been in Cambodia for 2 years.

Before I came here, I researched the written laws here (Prakas, in Cambodian), in particular land laws.

Hiring (and using) a lawyer presupposes that a viable legal system exists.

It doesn't.

In Cambodia, basically, there is virtually no rule of law (I could give you many examples) so hiring a lawyer isn't going to work for you.

The only time it may work for you is if the lawyer has some connections, and for some reason (after paying him ten grand or so), it will be in his interests to 'punish' your landlord, or somehow circumscribe his behavior (because the lawyer has a higher status).

My advice - get out of the house ASAP, and find a landlord you think you can trust (ask past tenants).

In many developing countries, "lawyers", police and politicians are simply the tool of the rich and powerful, and act in their (and their own) interests.

A good example:

Q: Have you ever seen a police car (or group of police cars) rushing to the scene of a crime in this country?

A: No, the only time they are ploughing through traffic (with dozens of military-thug escorts with batons and AK47's), is when they are escorting a high-status figure, who either wants to get home to his mistress quickly, needs to get to a meeting, or just doesn't want to wait at traffic lights like other people.

Watch what happens to people who inadvertantly (or advertantly) get in their way.

The crazy thing is, when guys like this are interviewed in the media, they all profess their love for the common person, and love of the common country, etc, etc.

HappyDaysAreHere
That's for sure.

I'm sorry, but I really disagree with the previous post! I feel you are looking at it from a Barang perspective, and acting on information that existed several years ago ie -"don't bother trying it out through legal systems because it doesn't exist, just leave it as you've lost it."
There is a local level law system that goes through the Sangat chief. I had a run in with a landlord a few years back, and was told - dont bother, just get on with it and consider it all gone! However, it didn't wash with me, and did get a lawyer involved, who was a friend, and they were able to layout exactly what my rights were, and anything done that is in breach of your contract are in fact enforceable here (if something has been stolen by them, it is a breach!). This was laid out to the other party, and out of negotiations, we got everything we asked for in compensation - so it didn't have to go to court, even if we were prepared to. The other party did not want to go to court as they stood to lose more!
So, there is no harm in trying, you might be very interested to learn your rights are here - from a CAMBODIAN, not a Barang!(no offence intended!)

S Simon

thanks for that response...

I accept that you had a good experience, and will keep my mind open, for sure.

Even in my country, the Law is very problematic (to really succeed in defending your rights, you need to be able to afford a decent lawyer), however, the courts are relatively free from 'corruption', thus, if you do go through the courts, there is transparent and unbiased deliberation of all arguments.

Consider:

- Separation of powers (separate and independent executive, parliament and judiciary)
- Checks and balances (more or less, monitoring of executive power through transparency)
- Independence of Judiciary (minimal 'political' appointments)
- Trial by Jury (peer judging, an ancient custom)
- etc

Thus, the "rule of law"...

Even though I did a law degree, I don't trust lawyers in ANY country!

HappyDaysAreHere
That's for sure

Thanks guys for these considerations but I was mainly asking for a lawyer contact...

My friend knows he has to move out anyhow, but there is some money involved and he just wants to at least try and get in touch with a lawyer and check whether there is something to do or not.

... So, if you have a relevant contact, please PM.

As simon mentioned you would be better off.....

If you have someone who speaks good english and khmer ask them to go with you. You will find that this option is most likely the most productive.

Apart from that...If someone has a legal contact please either post it email or PM it to donloz

I am with happydays and his great description of the siren convoys escorting people who think that they must be important.
I joined a convoy one night after having too many beers at the gym bar and we raced down norodom at high speed,it was great and I felt very self important.
Back to the legal system,it stinks.
I have spent half a day in the criminal court and witnessed exactly how it works,Three thieves who were unrepresented appeared before the three judges,the prosecutor and the clerk.The judges,clerk and prosecutor are answering their phones throughout,probably doing land deals.
There are no witnesses and the police report is the only evidence.
These poor malcontents got various sentences,one got five years for stealing a pushbike-and fair enough too.If we didnt crack down on crime you would have anarchy.
The next case a murder trial also had no witnesses,the chap had a lawyer but the lawyer was not allowed to speak or take any part in the process!!!
The lawyers role before the trial had been to negotiate the price for a reduced sentence,an exhaustive process that brought no result.
Everyone in the jail has the opportunity to negotiate their release,many high profile criminals are actually at home under house arrest.
One particular barang in for child sex offences has paid a huge sum and he gets to go out at night!
The longest serving foreign prisoner is a nigerian who has been in for over six years.
Inmates who have no family or friends are vulnerable and periodically a truck arrives before dawn and takes these unfortunates to a secret jail where they are starved to death or die very quickly of disease.

Hi Donloz, Check your PM

I dont disagree that the court system is a mess. You are missing the point though - there is LOCAL LEVEL justice through the SANGAT CHIEF where alot of these disputes can be negotiated through (admittedly with cost). If you have to go through the criminal court system as ML described, then you are right - it probably is just not worth it! But Donloz's mate doesn't need that - he needs some bargaining power to get some back - something which can be done at the LOCAL LEVEL - without corrupt police, without the corrupt judges - now whether it is through a corrupt Sangat chief - that's another matter, but better to have a local lawyer in the know than us Barangs who dont!

donloz,

sent you a M, lost the phone number, but gave you enough to get in touch with a certain PP police chief willing to help with personal problems, subject to negotiations ...

PS. it's just an idea, one i've used in the past ... i'm not suggesting it's the best or even the only route to take ...

Many thanks to all of you for your wise feedback.
I'll forward relevant details to my friend and he will try to find his way out.

I already knew how the situation is in this country and was not expecting miracles.

The best is of course to go through the local level, but in this sort of situation, local people have previous connexions with police guys and we barangs are always there a bit later...

Best wishes to all and thanks!

good luck with it, let us know how things go ... ? ...

Inmates who have no family or friends are vulnerable and periodically a truck arrives before dawn and takes these unfortunates to a secret jail where they are starved to death or die very quickly of disease.

Is that a fact?
And where might that secret jail be?
And why don't the Red Cross do something about it and that prison visiting NGO the Prison Fellowship?

Back on planet earth, one thing that does happen in the prisons is that they have work programmes e.g. some may be surprised to discover that Dockers trousers are finished in the main correctional centre. Unlike the garment factories prisons don't have unions!

are you sure that's not just the garbage truck?

Interesting chat ...

The prison in PP ... I have a friend who worked as a social worker in the men's prison, and the things she tells me keeps me awake at night., particularly in the stories of foreigners who are innocent and have been set up.

If anyone wants me to post them, I'm taking requests.

And you thought the Exorcist was scary!

HappyDaysAreHere
Word to the Muther

as long as it's made clear that they are a "story", then as such, i reckon post it, lol ...

but it could be just me, at that ...

Yes, I agree, it's a hallmark of this fine chat-room that we attempt to stick to the truth.

We don't want to be overly critical, and be seen as Cambodia-bashing (or American-bashing, or Zimbabwe-bashing, or Iran-bashing, etc)

My friend who worked as a social worker in the men's prison, she worked as a HIV counsellor there, and she suffered mental problems (as did the lady before her (they were never succesful in hiring a male counsellor).

Like the lady before also, my friend didn't last in the job for more than a few weeks, after sleeplessness, death threats, etc

The sh*t she used to tell me, I can't really verify ... so it maybe best not to post it.

Anway, I've seem some things in my time, however, her accounts left my blood cold, serious.

To take the discussion back to the relevant one (robberies in PP, hiring a lawyer in PP), it goes without saying that the legal system in Cambodia isn't the product of a democratic political system (the two go hand-in-hand) and is thus to be considered "ad hoc", to use a euphemism, and that anyone who is living and working in Cambodia who hasn't reflected on this, should probably do so!

I'm sure there are some success stories out there of people in Cambodian (Khmer and foreigner) having a fine experience with the law (money or no money), so if anyone can share these .. that would be a nice touch.

HappyDaysAreHere
Truth is Out There